Saturday 24 January 2009

The Holocaust, Nuremberg Trials and Abu Ghraib

As we come once again to the Holocaust Remembrance Day it behoves us to once again take a long hard look at history, and especially at the background of events which came to form the ‘historical basis’ of the Holocaust itself.

Prime amongst these events is The Nuremberg Trials.

The sad fact is that if the Nuremberg Trials were held again today then virtually all the evidence given to the trails would be thrown out of court as it was obtained by torture, hearsay evidence or not given under oath - and virtually all the interrogators who obtained the evidence based on torture would today be tried and thrown into prison.

The prisons that held the Nazi prisoners who gave evidence to the Nuremberg Trials were the Abu Ghraibs of their time.

The acts of torture that went on in the prisons that held German POW’s were not acts of torture being used to prevent a crime, they were acts torture designed to get German POW’s to admit to crimes both real and manufactured.

These acts of torture were also crimes themselves.

The issue then is simply this - under sustained torture a man will confess to anything.

Therefore the act of torture itself makes such ‘evidence’ inherently unreliable.

According to the legal standards of today none of the evidence obtained by the torture of Nazi POW’s and used in the Nuremberg Trials would be allowed in court.

In the trial of the Dachau guards alone there were recorded 139 cases of crushed testicles amongst the German prisoners being held by the allies.

There were false promises of leniency for those prisoners who ‘co-operated’ with the trial and gave ‘evidence’ in the trials against fellow prisoners.

Other German prisoners were told that unless they gave evidence against their fellow prisoners the food ration books of their families would be withdrawn and their families would be left to starve to death in the post-war famines that ravaged Germany.

Other prisoners were the subjects of mock executions, were told that they would be hung immediately if they did not give evidence against their fellow prisoners or that their families would be arrested and handed over to the Russians to be killed.

The article ‘Did 6 Million Really Die’ by Richard E. Harwood on the Radio Islam site here ;

As far as I am concerned the Holocaust is an objective historical fact so the issue of the numbers of dead Jewish victims of the Holocaust is an issue solely for historians to debate, but what this article has to say about the torture of German POW’s at the Nuremberg Trials is extremely important ;

The American Senator, Joseph McCarthy, in a statement given to the American Press on May 20th, 1949, drew attention to the following cases of torture to secure such confessions. In the prison of the Swabisch Hall, he stated, officers of the S.S. Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler were flogged until they were soaked in blood, after which their sexual organs were trampled on as they lay prostrate on the ground. As in the notorious Malmedy Trials of private soldiers, the prisoners were hoisted in the air and beaten until they signed the confessions demanded of them.

On the basis of such "confessions" extorted from S.S. Generals Sepp Dietrich and Joachim Paiper, the Leibstandarte was convicted as a "guilty organisation". S.S. General Oswald Pohl, the economic administrator of the concentration camp system, had his face smeared with faeces and was subsequently beaten until he supplied his confession.

In dealing with these cases, Senator McCarthy told the Press: "I have heard evidence and read documentary proofs to the effect that the accused persons were beaten up, maltreated and physically tortured by methods which could only be conceived in sick brains. They were subjected to mock trials and pretended executions, they were told their families would be deprived of their ration cards. All these things were carried out with the approval of the Public Prosecutor in order to secure the psychological atmosphere necessary for the extortion of the required confessions. If the United States lets such acts committed by a few people go unpunished, then the whole world can rightly criticise us severely and forever doubt the correctness of our motives and our moral integrity."

The methods of intimidation described were repeated during trials at Frankfurt-am-Mein and at Dachau, and large numbers of Germans were convicted for atrocities on the basis of their admissions. The American Judge Edward L. van Roden, one of the three members of the Simpson Army Commission which was subsequently appointed to investigate the methods of justice at the Dachau trials, revealed the methods by which these admissions were secured in the Washington Daily News, January 9th, 1949. His account also appeared in the British newspaper, the Sunday Pictorial, January 23rd, 1949.

The methods he described were: "Posturing as priests to hear confessions and give absolution; torture with burning matches driven under the prisoners finger-nails; knocking out of teeth and breaking jaws; solitary confinement and near starvation rations." Van Roden explained: "The statements which were admitted as evidence were obtained from men who had first been kept in solitary confinement for three, four and five months . . . The investigators would put a black hood over the accused's head and then punch him in the face with brass knuckles, kick him and beat him with rubber hoses . . . All but two of the Germans, in the 139 cases we investigated, had been kicked in the testicles beyond repair. This was standard operating procedure with our American investigators."

What happened to the German POW’s after World War Two and in the lead up to the Nuremberg Trials were the precursors of what happened in Abu Ghraib.

The US government has never investigated the horrific abuse of German POW’s after World War Two, and this sent a signal out to the US military that has led to atrocities being committed by American troops throughout the late 20th Century, from the My Lai massacre in Vietnam to the torture of Iraqi’s in Abu Ghraib.

The Nuremberg Trials are a stain upon history. They are not proof of the greater morality of the Western Powers, for the Nuremberg Trials were themselves simply the heirs of the Nazi show trials and the Soviet show trials. The findings of the Nuremberg Trials do not act as evidence of any historical events - simply because the trials were themselves based on acts and evidence that can only be classified as crimes against humanity.

What we require today is for the Nuremberg Trials, and all those involved in it, to be investigated and the facts revealed.

If any evidence that was included in the Nuremberg Trials is found to have been based on torture, the that evidence should be thrown out.

The present political regimes of the West are the heirs of those that authorised the torture of German POW’s.

The Nuremberg Trails were nothing more than propaganda events designed to make the Germans look ‘evil’ and the allies look ‘good’, they were not records of historical events.

Any historical narrative whose roots can be found in torture have no legal, historical or moral validity.

This is a recognised principle of both modern law and politics.

For the West to use the Nuremberg Trails as an example of the superior morality of the Allies, and also to use the findings as evidence of any historical events, is both perverse and unlawful.

The rules on torture are today regarded as universal and applying to all people in all countries - and that principle must also be applied to the past as well.

Just as the so called ’confessions’ of people in the Third Reich and the Soviet Union are now regarded as historically unreliable, then logical consistency demands that the Nuremberg Trials be measured with the same yardstick.

The West has for too long embraced a collective cult of self imposed amnesia over its crimes during the Second World War.

It is this collective amnesia, and the sense of superiority it engenders even today amongst the US armed forces, and also the Israeli armed forces, which allows them to continue to commit atrocities generation after generation.

All those who were criminals either during the Second World War, or after the war, must be punished if they are still alive today.

The hunting of Nazis is regarded as ’justice for the dead’ yet the hunting, arrest and trials of Communist, Israeli and allied criminals who committed the same crimes as Nazis is never even contemplated.

Justice for the innocent dead is a universal concept, and unless we begin to hunt and prosecute all those who committed crimes against humanity during the 20th Century then we have no grounds on which to call ourselves a civilised nation.

The German POW's were human beings with rights under the Geneva Convention.

They should also have been regarded as innocent before being proved guilty which is the only basis of a civilised legal system.

Just as we rightly condemned the torture and ill treatment of British pilots captured by Saddam Hussein during the first Gulf War, we should extend that principle to all other human beings including German POW's in the Nuremberg Trials.

Just as we condemned the torture of British soldiers by the IRA, we should extend that principle to all combatants in all conflicts including the torture and murder of British soldiers by Jewish terrorists in Palestine and during the terrorist campaigns by Irgun and the Stern Gang and others that created Israel - as the Geneva Convention requires us by international law to do.

Those tortured were regarded as guilty the moment the first fist or boot smashed into their face. Therefore the confessions they made are meaningless.

The issues of the Holocaust and the Nurmeberg Trials must be regarded as separate.

For the Holocaust to rely on evidence obtained by torture demeans its standing in history.

Torture a man long enough and he will confess to anything.

Democracies built on tyranny, blood and lies require perpetual tyranny, blood and lies to keep them alive.

I am sure that each family whose members fought in the Second World War have a story to tell.

My grandfather, who was in the Royal Navy, told my family of an event he witnessed during the war. His ship was sent to take on board German prisoners of war and my grandfather was sent to escort the German POW's on board the ship for transportation back to Britain.

As a German POW, a former member of the SS, came on board the boat he spat at my grandfather and swore at him in German.

An MP who stood at the top of the ramp took his pistol out of his holster then shot the unarmed German POW in the back of the head, then kicked his body over the edge of the boat into the water.

He smiled at my grandfather and said ' The bastard wont do that again ' and walked away laughing.

How doing that helped the war, or made us morally better than the Nazis, escapes me.

The time has come for the lies that shame history to be investigate and the truth finally told.

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Anonymous said...

Of course the Nuremberg trials were a kangaroo court as many highly qualified people said at the time. They were a US psych operation designed to prevent the rise of another strong Germany which would threaten again the dominant powers.Those powers were not meek as lambs, you dont become number one nation by being nice! and crushing testicles is paar for the course. Thousands of Germans were hanged mostly on the hearsay of former captives who had an axe to grind.Though if it was a choice of being a civilian under German occupation in France or being a German under Red army occupation in Germany ,I would have chosen the former.
Unfortunately cruelty is a part of man's psyche and whether the guards are at Abu Ghraib or Nuremberg the temptation is to enjoy being cruel.
All the former German concentration camp commanders as well as many of the guards both female and male were hanged on the flimsiest of evidence because those in power ie the Soviet and US masters required it. If you look at the Belson trial evidence , most of it is eyewitness and based on affidavits mostly written by US psych ops. However I shouldnt be surprised that most people are gullible ! After all even intelligent people go along to the church down the road and believe in David and Goliath and Noah's ark. The BBC and the Daily Telegraph carried yesterday the story of how Dr Mengele carried on with his studies on IVF and twins in the 1950s in South America!!!
Well if that story has any truth then I am the Pope! Still the dutiful Daily Telegraph readers will no doubt believe it as a sort of curtain raiser for "holocaust memorial day". Await further stories from holocaust survivors in the "advent" season as we come up to the great feast day of the "Frankfurt school "religion.

alanorei said...

The strange thing about Oswald Pohl was that he was sentenced to death for a string of atrocities, including the proposal for the use of gas chambers in the extermination camps but his execution was delayed for 4 years.

He appears to have had help in high places for a time. It seems that various sinister forces were at work in the trials. I suspect they still are.

Anonymous said...

Yep thousands of Jews, Gypsies etc were rounded up and sent to concentration camps in WW2. Towards the end with complete breakdown many thousands tragically died due to typhus and other diseases at the same time as 20-30,000 german civilians were being killed in allied air raids every night.
However I doubt there were any homicidal gas chambers; At Nuremburg it was claimed that they were at Belson and Dachau which is now even by Yad Vasheen said to be false. Now we are supposed to believe they were all at Auschwitz despite the fact there is zilch in the way of forensic evidence to support the gassing of hundreds of thousands of people there. Yep zilch.
Oh yes and at Treblinka 700 thousand were supposedly gassed then buried, then dug up and burned . There is absolutely no forensic evidence for this. Ground radar studies have shown no disturbance in the soil to suggest there ever having been huge mass graves there at all.

Looks like this Catholic Bishop knows the truth...and is in a lot of trouble

alanorei said...

Certainly David Irving and others have denied the existence of the gas chambers. Czech national Rudolph Vbra believed they existed at Auschwitz. He escaped from there in April 1944.

Anonymous said...

Hi Lee

Whilst I appreciate your noble sentiments and your perfectly logical argument, I have to say that I can't agree with you.

For what the nazis did I have no sympathy whatsoever for them or their disgusting and inhumane ideology. They were fanatical, supremacist scum. Let me remind those of you who sympathise with nazis:

They are a product of the left, they were socilaists. They treated human beings like shit. Just as the followers of the paedophile prophet do. And "Allah's apostles" will treat YOU and YOURS like shit. They BEHEAD buddhists and children FFS! These fanatics make the dispicable nazis look like amateurs.

As for "Civilised society", please don't be so naive, when it comes to war and power, there is nothing civilised about it. You fight, you fight to win and you fight dirty if needs be. As paedo mo said: "war is deceit."

Those who start wars and commit vile atrocities don't dictate how they end. "To the victor the spoils". The nazis were abhorrent, not just for their raging jew- hatred but for what they did to many other peoples. Children were not spared either. Give a fuck about these beasts getting battered and tortured? Gimme a break, please, they asked for it they got it. Fuck 'em. They lost and the allies prevailed and most of the nazi scumbags are dead now so why give a toss?

We are now facing an enemy that hates you and will destroy you doing whatever they can without giving a toss about your human rights, a civilised society or the abstract term "justice".

Those who can't stomach the fight and want to play by "Marquis of Queensbury old chap" I suggest you're in the wrong business and you need to get out of the way. When it comes to Islam, the faint-hearted, moral-crusaders handicap more than they help. We're being attacked in OUR OWN LAND in case you hadn't noticed by the very jihadists the Messiah Obama is kissing up to by closing Gitmo.

And we're discussing WWII?

As my very good Dutch friend states: "Why are the British still banging on about WWII - it's over move on!"

We now face Islamic jihad and it would be better, if, instead of banging on about how bad the allies were in WWII, we all used the freedom those allies won at high price to attack and highlight the disgusting inhumane crimes being committed by our mortal Islamic enemy. RIGHT NOW.

There is an abundance of material I guarantee it.

"All's fair in love and war". We had better realise this or we are doomed. You don't survive by being playing nice that's for sure.


It's us or them, end of.


Defender of Liberty said...

Hi Chris,

As I have stated to you many times my friend, Islam is not the problem - the problem is the inner traitors that surrender our countries to them.

The Islamists are the problem - along with the Liberals that open our borders to them, the capitalists that surrender our national economies to the middle east oil producers, the zionists that support mass immigration into the UK as it dilutes nationalism, the communists that see Islam as a way to create social unrest that benefits them, the multi-culturalists, the politically correct scum etc etc

Islam is a belief system - those that embrace a distorted version of that belief system are the problem - and they are OUR problem as the arseholes that have run this country for the last one hundred years let the bastards into our country.

I am well aware of the dangers of Islamism, mass immigration and liberal surrender and Dhimmitude - and the only way we can stop them though is by dealing with the people that created the problem - not by mistaking the symptoms of the problem FOR THE PROBLEM,

all the best,


Defender of Liberty said...

WW2 is an issue as the elite that sent us to war then , still send us to war now.

Not until the same elite that sent us to war in WW1 and WW2 are out of power can we ensure that we will never be used again to destroy another European nation in the name of profit.

The scum that run this country would rather we went to war against other white nations or that we wage pathetic wars in the middle east than we become a nationalist nation - they would destroy this nation before letting us get a chance to save it.

Therefore they have to be revealed for what they are - hypocritical, lieing,murdering scum.

Anonymous said...

Alanorei really just reinforces my point. If millions of Jews were gassed the evidence shoudnt be a few eye witnesses, after all we could officially believe in Martians as I am sure there would be quite a few people who would have sworn they had seen them especially if there was financial advantage.
We look at forensic evidence of which there should be a massive paper trail at least of plans etc in the 10 tons of documents lieing in places like Arolson and the archives in Moscow.
The fact that it is illegal in most of Europe to discuss such matters and your blog would lead to a jail sentence in Germany, France etc should give you the answer as to whether there were any Nazi homicidal gas chambers!

Anonymous said...

"and the only way we can stop them though is by dealing with the people that created the problem - not by mistaking the symptoms of the problem FOR THE PROBLEM,"

Excellent point Lee.

People need to start thinking beyond the immediate issues facing us - and not merely seeing the symptoms as the only problem.

The System is the problema dn mass immigration, globalisation and militant Islam are just the tip of the huge iceberg.

Islam has been overrated as the scoyrge of the world. Islam is like evolution or a plage of locusts or cicadi or a virus - it sleeps for a long time then something awakens it. The world can share this planet with Islam but its more militant and aggressive phase needs checking and destroying, but it is not Islam per se that is the real problem. It is one of many heads on the Hydra monster. Instead of cutting off just one or two heads we need to kill the beast itself.

Anonymous said...

It is interesting to note that just prior to the end of WW2 and immediately after it both America and Britain made great efforts to remove the best brains and technologies from Germany, partyly to stop the Russians from gaining and secondly to boost their own power and technological impetus.

Operation Paperclip was just one such scheme to smuggle out rocket, jet plane and atomic scientists from a defeated Germany and to remove the advanced technologies that German scientists ha been developing, including the V1 and V2.

But of course, they were not convicetd or prosecuted and great efforts were made to protect these men who it could be claimed contributed to the German war machine and even to war crimes.

But the victorious allies have whitewashed such things from history as history is always written by the victors.

Anonymous said...

It is interesting to note that one of the reasons for the quickness and resoluteness of the Nuremburg Trials and the cover-up was the confusion and fear that the Allies had in trying to understand how a modern, civilised, technological and democratic state as Germany in the 1930s could have created and supported a regimke based on the broad precepts of the 'occult'.

Hitler, though certainly no 'Black Magician' or occultist, presided over what can only be called an 'Occult State', using the imagery and techniques and sumbolism of the arcance, the occult and pagan revivalism to effect a state built and suporte don entirely different principles to the secular democracies of the West.

The Allies at Nuremburg feared this revelation and had to paint the Nazis as being 'merely' brutish and evil individuals serving an evil totalitarian regime, whereas they could not effectively let the public know what the reality was underpinning this regime and all the terrible deeds that it had done.

Anonymous said...


"and the only way we can stop them though is by dealing with the people that created the problem - not by mistaking the symptoms of the problem FOR THE PROBLEM,"

ISLAM IS THE PROBLEM. It has been since 622 and the only people who "distort it" are people who refuse to acknowledge what Islam actually is.

It maybe being helped by traitors now but Islam hasn't spread because of "useful idiots" it has spread by the sword. It is not a religion of peace, it hasn't been since 622 and that is enshrined in the example of the Islamic prophet mohammed who personally waged war on the non-believer. He did so because he stated that Allah had commanded him to do so.

If you or anyone else thinks we can peacefully co-exist with Islam then you are in for the same shock as the Jews, the Christians and the Zoroastrians of the ME, the Orthodox Christians of the Balkans, the Christians of Turkey, the Hindus of India, the Buddhists of Thailand and Christ knows how many blacks in Africa over the years, all of these people have been slaughtered in their millions by Islamic jihadists.

And let's not forget that the forces of Islam have tried to conquer Europe twice - the jihad against us isn't new nor is it happening because of "the system". The system isn't helping, sure, but whether it did or not, jihad would still be being waged against us.

Jihadists are now in our midst and they are waging war on us right now. Whilst Islam exists peace won't until the whole world belongs to Allah. That is Islam.

Those infidels - those who muslims regard as the lowest of the low, the equivalent of piss and shit as they are "najis" - who state otherwise are as guilty as the same appeasers of WWII who thought by playing nice with the nazis then we'd avoid war.

It's this hubris of westerners who are so removed from reality it beggars belief that they just cannot accept the existence of a force that absolutely despises them and wants to annihlate them. They think everyone shares their love of peace and life so they blame the rich and powerful westerners rather than face the harsh truth that a fanatical enemy that wants to conquer them to serve their deity is now on their doorstep.

"Yes it's not those nice muslims they're being used by the system, and if we break the system we can live in peace with muslims."

It won't work. Nor will it work for those who try and make allies of jihadists. Study Islam, study its history but most of all study what its so-called prophet did. That's they key because what he did is the example for all muslims to follow. It is an example being followed all over the world.

We ignore it at our peril.


alanorei said...

Re: gas chambers, Vbra was nevertheless a credible witness. He was there when Auschwitz was functional. Reproduced blueprints of the gas chambers exist, along with photographs. The mass crematoria with gas chambers were established by J.A. Topf and Sons of Erfurt who filed a patent for their apparatus in Germany on October 26th 1942, entitled Method and appliance for the incineration of corpses, cadavers and parts thereof'. 3 basic types appear to have existed, the gas chambers being an intergral part of the incinerator design, along with undressing room, mortuary, engine room, storeroom, fuel storage and furnaces etc. The 4 original crematoria at Auschwitz could consume 200 bodies an hour. 2 of an improved design were added later. They were staffed by a total of 860 Sonderkommando prisoners from the camp, bribed by the SS guards to do the job. The SS shot and replaced them every four months.

Auschwitz commandant Rudolph Hoess described in vivid detail the death of a batch of victims by means of Cyclon B, yielding HCN, hydrogen cyanide. Hoess decided on this method because he thought the use of carbon monoxide (at Treblinka) was inefficient.

This is from a work by Roger Manvell and Heinrich Fraenkel. Manvell worked for the British Ministry of Information during the war and Fraenkel was a German academic whom the Nazis blacklisted when they came to power.

As for the missing documentation, any that has to do with the design, construction, operation and maintenance of mass crematoria will probably come to light when the EU 4th Reich bans dissident political parties after, I think, 2010.

I agree with the Lee, yourelf and others that this is the over-arching point and the one to focus on, while not forgetting the grim lessons of the past.

Anonymous said...

I will answer Alonerei's points. First of all you dont rely on a book written by a man who works for the wartime ministry of propaganda in Britain and co-authored by a Jewish German exile. Remember the original US propaganda claimed there were gas chambers in Belson and Dachau, and that victims were mass electrocuted. The Soviets also claimed that the Germans killed all the officers at Katyn , later admitted to be A Soviet crime.
Now as to eye witnesses , well as the police will tell you they are the worst evidence to produce in court. You need proper forensic evidence. Unfortunately Aloreie there are no gas chamber blueprints even though every two months the papers will suddenly announce they have found some; geez last novemeber Bild found them in a Berlin apartment!! a story faithfully replicated in UK newspapers > The said blueproints were actually old drawings showing "Gaskellers" which were for disinfecting clothes. Oh well never let the truth get in the way of a myth.
There are also no photographs of gas chambers unless you mean the photo from Dachau of a supposed gas chamber which is admitted even by yad vasheen never to have actually been a homicidal gas chamber! The one shown in Auschwitz is by Polish admission a "reconstruction".
The crematoria at auschwitz were built after the typhoid epidemic which killed about 10,000 inmates in 1942. The supposed gas chamber at Krema 2 was actually a morgue. The faithful claim 2000 were killed at a time in this " chamber" every hour....little problem there is a 6 foot lift as the only exit to the crematoria above.There would have been a little bottleneck surely for the sonderkommando who according to Hoess's "confession" merrily went in there taking the bodies out, smoking and laughing. Of course if they did that they would have found that the cyanide gas would have killed tham as well.Hoess 's confession written in English a language he didnt understand was extracted after three days of savage beatings and threats to send his wife and children to Russia.
Yes the truth is out there Alorei but there are tremendous forces preventing you from knowing it. It remains illegal in most of Europe to even question it.

alanorei said...

Re: First of all you dont rely on a book written by a man who works for the wartime ministry of propaganda in Britain and co-authored by a Jewish German exile.

I suggest this is the notorious ad hominem argument.

Re: Now as to eye witnesses , well as the police will tell you they are the worst evidence to produce in court. You need proper forensic evidence.

Which again doesn't of itself invalidate the testimony and reports of Vbra, Manvell and Fraenkel.

Re: Unfortunately Aloreie there are no gas chamber blueprints

I can well believe there aren't any in the public domain now.

Correction to my earlier post - the plans are for the basement and ground floor plans of Crematoria 1-4.

The figure was for 200 an hour (50 bodies per hour per crematorium), not 2000. See above.

The copy of the patented plans that I have seen indicates an execution room, which would not be part of a design for cremation of plague victims. Gas chambers are clearly marked as such.

'Safe' methods for removal of the dead are described by M and F. They don't involve anyone smoking merrily.

The quote I have from Hoess doesn't match his statements at Nuremberg, as found on the web. So it is clearly from another source.

There seems here to be a conflict of sources, which is probably not easy to resolve.

Getting back to Lee's post, though, any allegations of mistreatemnt of defendants e.g. to extract confessions by force, certainly should be investigated.

However, if some kind of cover-up exists, for whatever purpose, that to me augurs another WW2-style holocaust.

It would be as well, therefore, to identify the tremendous forces responsible.

I suggest a study of post-WW2 Vatican ratlines would be useful in that context.

Anonymous said...

Please do send me these blue prints with Gas chamber clearly marked or at least a link to them, surely as such an important document they will be on the web somewhere?. The only "blue prints " i have seen show morgues adjacent to the crematoria clearly marked as "leichenkeller"and "Gaskeller" which is a reference to the gas chambers where Zyclon B was used to disinfect clothes.

alanorei said...

The best I can do for now is give you chapter and verse, so to speak, as follows, which you may be able to follow up at your local library. (Whatever web sources may/may not exist, what follows is the original source, i.e. the earliest one I have):

Purnell's History of the Second World War, Volume 3, Issue No. 15, Factory for Extermination, by M and F, p 1313ff.

The series was published 1967-68. I don't say it was 100% exact but it was thorough. One of the editors was the late Captain Sir Basil Liddell-Hart, whom I think is still regarded as a leading WW2 historian.

One other interesting point. I don't here gainsay the atrocities Lee and others including yourself have mentioned w.r.t Nuremberg but I have read an account of US Army Chaplain Henry Gerecke, 1893-1961. As such, he dealt personally with Goering, Ribbentrop, Keitel, Frick, Sauckel, Rosenberg (all sentenced to death), Hess, Raeder, Funk (life imprisonment), Schirach, Speer, von Neurath, Doenitz (10+ years imprisonment), Fritzsche and Schacht (acquitted). None of these men were tortured. They were permitted to attend Christian worship services led by Chaplain Gerecke. Several, including Ribbentrop, made professions of Christian belief thanks to Gerecke's ministry - fully aware that such professions would not mitigate their eventual sentences.

A total of 21 members of Gerecke's 'congregation' signed a letter to Mrs Alma Gerecke asking that her husband be allowed to remain in Germany as their pastor until their sentences were passed. It was rumoured he was going to be rotated Stateside. About half the men who signed the letter were hanged but their future punishment had not influenced their petition, which was successful.

This is found in War and Grace by Don Stephen, ISBN 978-0-85234-594-8, p 253ff.

It appears from Lee's account and yours that different conditions must have existed in different gaols.

But again, I think due emphasis should be given to more detailed identification of these tremendous forces. You can't resist an enemy you don't know.

If these forces brought about the deaths of fifty+ millions in WW2, half a million from Britain and the Commonwealth alone, then they have had 60+ years of preparation to do a lot worse now - I don't think they have gone out of business in that time. Quite the reverse, I suggest.

alanorei said...

Thanks, Lee

I trust the information may be of some use.

The discussion has prompted a further and I think particularly pressing issue, which Anon alluded to earlier.

Holocaust denial* is evidently a crime in continental Europe, or at least in parts thereof.

*I for one don't deny the Holocaust, more accurately Inquisition but that is not the issue here.

This must prompt the question, who benefits?

On the face of it, I would guess the Jews - to start with.

But if suppression of Holocaust denial is perceived as an attack on free speech and even further as a denial of history, then I could see one possible result as a surge of Gentile resentment against European Jews and an eventual violent backlash - if the resentment is manipulated aright.

I believe it could be for the following reason.

What makes this situation a potential powder (or nitroglycerine) keg is the large influx of anti-Semitic aliens who have established about 750 no-go areas for 'infidels' in France. Their co-religionists recently went on the rampage in London, vandalising property and hurling insults and missiles at the London Police, who ran away.

What is to stop these groups assembling again in their thousands and going on a killing spree against 'infidels' in cities and towns all across Britain, wherever they can congregate in sufficient numbers?

They now know they're got the police cowered.

I think the world's been here before.

In other words, we face a 'back to the future' situation 70 years on - as it was in 1939.

Your Nuremberg article has prompted a very useful thrash around in comments. I suggest an article on the above would be a worthwhile follow up.

P.S. I appreciate that Muslims oppose free speech but that only applies for 'infidels.' They themselves exercise this 'right' to the point of abuse and beyond.